Hosts Elizabeth Chapin and Leigh Jackson have a conversation with guest and friend George Patton, a self pres four. One take away is that for sexual 4, being seen for who you are lords over the fear of abandonment, and for self pres 4, the fear of abandonment lords over the desire to be seen. If you need a refresher on subtypes and instincts, listen to our episode 19 for an overview of these terms.